Hi Murphy,
I had a few comments based off of the links you posted:
Marian apparitionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparitionQuote:
Impact of apparitions
Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City.
While Marian apparitions may at times seem like fanciful tales told by young children of no significant education about experiences they say they had with a Lady on a mountain top which few people had ever heard of before, factual analysis indicates that the effect of apparitions on the Roman Catholic Church has been significant. Marian apparitions have led to, or affected, the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Mariology and the lives of millions of Roman Catholics in several ways:
* The conversion of millions of people to Roman Catholicism.
* The construction of some of the largest Roman Catholic Marian churches ever.
* The formation of the largest Marian Movements and Societies ever.
* The spread of Marian devotions (such as the rosary) to millions of people.
* The declaration of specific Marian dogmas and doctrines.
* Hundreds of millions of Marian pilgrimages.
So, let me get this straight. The impact or shall we say the fruit of these apparitions has been converting people to the Roman Catholic church (not converting them to follow the Jesus of the Bible as taught by the Bible but the Roman Catholic Church which is essentially an aberration of Biblical truth.) Other fruits are the building of Marian Churches (has nothing to do with Jesus). Another fruit is large movents and societies that follow Mary (once again not following Jesus). The fruit of Marian devotions through the rosary (God commands in the Bible to not take part in repetitive prayer, especially to Mary). Lastly, hundreds of millions of Marian pilgrimages (millions of dollars spent by millions of people chasing after Mary).
Quote:
Mariology
Murillo's Immaculate Conception, 1650
Marian apparitions such as Our Lady of Lourdes (which promoted Immaculate Conception) have also influenced the direction of Roman Catholic Mariology, as illustrated by the ex cathedra exercise of Papal infallibility on the dogma of Immaculate Conception. This also illustrated that unlike most Roman Catholic theology which originates from the upper levels of the Church, Mariology has quite often been driven from the ground up by the tens of millions of Catholics with a special devotion to the Blessed Virgin. As Marian apparitions create strong emotions among large numbers of Roman Catholics, they lead to sensus fidelium. This strong response among Catholics in turn influences the higher levels of the Roman Catholic hierarchy as sensus fidei gains strength.
To this end, the official Vatican website Agenzia Fides stated in 2004 that:
"The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was defined by Pius IX not so much because of proofs in Scripture or ancient tradition, but due to a profound sensus fidelium, a century-old sense of the faithful, and the Magisterium".[23]
The Vatican quotes in this context the encyclical Fulgens Corona, where Pius XII supported such a faith.[24] In several Marian teachings, the "theology of the people" such as the immaculate Conception, the profound and century-old sense of the faithful has taken precedence over academic theology.[23]
Murphy, do you really believe the Pope has the authority to change scripture (deciding that Mary was sinless in direct contradiction to the Bible)? What about the theology of the people? Do you really think that a large group of sinful people who through their strong devotion to this un-Biblical concept of Mary that results in strong emotion should be able to change scripture (Sensus fidelium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensus_fidelium)? If an apparition (Lady of Lourdes) promotes the un-Biblical Immaculate Conception do you really think that apparition is of God?
Quote:
Pilgrimages
Marian apparitions are also responsible for tens of millions of Marian pilgrimages per year. About 5 million pilgrims visit Lourdes every year and within France only Paris has more hotels than Lourdes. And about 10 million pilgrims visit Our Lady of Guadalupe each year, where each mass can accommodate up to 40,000 people.[25] Thus each decade, just Lourdes and Guadalupe amount to over one hundred million Catholic pilgrimages, based on Marian apparitions to two people on two remote hilltops.
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima also attracts a large number of Roman Catholics, and every year pilgrims fill the country road that leads to the shrine with crowds that approach one million on May 13 and October 13, the significant dates of Fatima apparitions.[26] Overall, about four million pilgrims visit the basilica every year.[27]
Where is Jesus in all this? Millions of people and millions of dollars are being spent on people running after Mary.
Your second link:
Our Lady of Fátimahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_FatimaQuote:
Three Secrets of Fátima
Main article: Three Secrets of Fátima
First two secrets
The first secret was a vision of Hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir, as follows:
"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."[11]
The second secret included Mary's instructions on how to save souls from Hell and convert the world to the Roman Catholic faith, written in 1917:
"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."[12]
The third secret, a vision of the death of the Pope and other religious figures, was transcribed by the Bishop of Leiria and reads:
"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!' And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."[18]
The first secret is hell. Nothing is revealed here that has not already been covered in the Bible.
The second secret is God commanding the world to be devoted to Mary's immaculate Heart to
save sinners (no mention of Jesus here). Wow, so if what this apparition said is correct, then I don't necessarily have to have faith in Jesus and in Him only to save my soul. I can have Mary's immaculate Heart and find salvation there. This is earth shattering in it's importance if true. Let's take a closer look at the doctrine of Mary's Immaculate Heart:
Immaculate Heart of Maryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Heart_of_MaryQuote:
Veneration and devotion
Veneration of the Heart of Mary is analogous to worship of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It is, however, necessary to indicate a few differences in this analogy, the better to explain the character of Roman Catholic devotion to the Heart of Mary. Some of these differences are very marked, whereas others are barely perceptible. The Devotion to the Heart of Jesus is especially directed to the "Divine Heart" as overflowing with love for humanity, presented as "despised and outraged"[2]. In the devotion to the Mary, on the other hand, the attraction is the love of this Heart for Jesus and for God. Its love for humans is not overlooked, but it is not so much in evidence nor so dominant.
A second difference is the nature of the devotion itself. In devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Roman Catholic venerates in a sense of love responding to love. In devotion to the Heart of Mary, study and imitation hold as important a place as love. Love is more the result than the object of the devotion, the object being rather to love God and Jesus better by uniting one's self to Mary for this purpose and by imitating her virtues. It would also seem that, although in the devotion to the Heart of Mary the heart has an essential part as symbol and sensible object, it does not stand out as prominently as in the devotion to the Heart of Jesus; devotion focuses rather on the thing symbolized, the love, virtues, and sentiments of Mary's interior life.
The Immaculate Heart pierced by a sword, appearing on the Miraculous Medal
The Immaculate Heart has also been involved in (and been depicted) in saintly Marian apparitions such as those to Saint Catherine Labouré in 1830 and appears on the Miraculous Medal.[3] On the Miraculous Medal, the Immaculate Heart is pierced by a sword. The Sacred Heart of Jesus also appears on the medal, next to the Immaculate Heart, but is crowned with thorns, rather than being pierced by a sword. The M on the medal signifies the Blessed Virgin at the foot of the Cross when Jesus was being crucified.
Our Lady of Fatima asked that, in reparation for sins committed against her Immaculate Heart, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months the Catholic:
1. Go to Confession (within 8 days before or after the first Saturday)
2. Receive Holy Communion
3. Recite five decades of the Rosary*
4. Keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary
She promised that, whoever would ever do this, would be given at the hour of his death, the graces necessary for salvation.
To be blunt this is a bunch on un-Biblical gibberish. So, basically, by maintaining a state of veneration (respect and awe analogous to worship) to Mary's Immaculate Heart as I would to Jesus's Immaculate Heart (I'll get to this in a minute) I will be able to save sinners from hell (as stated by the apparition of Fatima). So, to be clear if I maintain a sense of awe and respect analogous to worship and meditate on these attributes "Mary's interior life, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for her God, her maternal love for her Son, Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people." I will be able to save souls from hell. This type of teaching is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Okay, we should look at the Catholic teaching of the Sacred heart of Jesus as mention above.
Sacred Hearthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart_of_JesusFirst, due to the complexity of what the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is I will have to give you another link rather than try and explain it myself.
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesushttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htmSo, basically if I do everything listed in the prior link I can achieve this in my life (back to the Wiki page):
Quote:
Promises of the Sacred Heart
Basilica of the Sacred Heart in Koekelberg, Brussels, Belgium
Sacred Heart Basilica, Paris.
Christ, in his appearances to Margaret Mary, allegedly promised these blessings to those who practice devotion to his Sacred Heart....
1. I will give them all the graces necessary for their state of life.
2. I will give peace in their families.
3. I will console them in all their troubles.
4. I will be their refuge in life and especially in death.
5. I will abundantly bless all their undertakings.
6. Sinners shall find in my Heart the source and infinite ocean of mercy.
7. Tepid souls shall become fervent.
8. Fervent souls shall rise speedily to great perfection.
9. I will bless those places wherein the image of My Sacred Heart shall be exposed and venerated.
10. I will give to priests the power to touch the most hardened hearts.
11. Persons who propagate this devotion shall have their names eternally written in my Heart.
12. In the excess of the mercy of my Heart, I promise you that my all powerful love will grant to all those who will receive Communion on the First Fridays, for nine consecutive months, the grace of final repentance: they will not die in my displeasure, nor without receiving the sacraments; and my Heart will be their secure refuge in that last hour.
So, if I follow the Sacred Heart of Jesus I'm going to have all grace, peace in my family, consolation for all my troubles, refuge in life and death, blessings in
all my undertakings, etc. This is no different than the demonic lies of the prosperity gospel sweeping through the protestant church. This is once again a bunch of un-Biblical gibberish. Jesus clearly said in the Bible that if you follow Him you
will be persecuted and suffer many hardships.
It goes on with this:
Quote:
Great efficacy of converting people has been attached to the use of the image of the Sacred Heart.
"Even at the hour of death, incredulous, indifferent, hardened souls have been converted by simply showing them a picture of the Sacred Heart, which sufficed to restore these sinners to the life of hope and love, in a word, to touch the most hardened. It would, indeed, be a great misfortune to any apostolic man to neglect so powerful a means of conversion, ....
So apparently I can also just show a dying sinner an image of Mary's Immaculate Heart and lead them to conversion. Wow!
Okay, back to Fatima and the 2nd secret.
The second secret goes on to talk of Russia needing to be consecrated to Mary's Immaculate Heart to avoid all sorts of bad stuff from happening. Well, as we know Russia went into communism and all sorts of bad things happened. I will not speculate further on this point.
The third secret reveals the Virgin Mary standing next to an angel crying out "Penance, penance, penance" as the pope and the Catholic leadership and all Catholics are slaughtered. Wow, well, I'm not sure what to make of this. We might as well check out penance since that seems to be the crux of the vision.
Quote:
pen⋅ance
–noun
1. a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.
2. a penitential discipline imposed by church authority.
3. a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.
So, it seems the 3rd secret is about Catholics being slaughtered as a punishment for their sins under Mary's watchful gaze.
I am not going to bother digging into the other to apparitions since it will be more of the same. Basically, it seems to me that all these apparitions do is spew out false un-biblical teachings that draw people away from Jesus and redirects them towards Mary.
The gospel message is not complicated. We do not have to have the "Sacred Heart of Mary" or the "Sacred Heart of Jesus". Here are the Bible basics on salvation through Jesus:
The Basics of Salvation Through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christhttp://www.bible-knowledge.com/what-is-salvation.html