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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:23 pm 
Is this film even going to go to public theatres? All I can find is select churches. I am a firm believer and I doubt seriously Satan would have a hand in this. Its likely that with all the trouble the Catholic Church has had that the ones that have stuck with the church and kept the faith will be the ones to survive the rapture! (Just as wild an idea)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fatima
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Me%C4%91ugorje
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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Hi Murphy,

I had a few comments based off of the links you posted:

Marian apparition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition
Quote:
Impact of apparitions
Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City.

While Marian apparitions may at times seem like fanciful tales told by young children of no significant education about experiences they say they had with a Lady on a mountain top which few people had ever heard of before, factual analysis indicates that the effect of apparitions on the Roman Catholic Church has been significant. Marian apparitions have led to, or affected, the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Mariology and the lives of millions of Roman Catholics in several ways:

* The conversion of millions of people to Roman Catholicism.
* The construction of some of the largest Roman Catholic Marian churches ever.
* The formation of the largest Marian Movements and Societies ever.
* The spread of Marian devotions (such as the rosary) to millions of people.
* The declaration of specific Marian dogmas and doctrines.
* Hundreds of millions of Marian pilgrimages.

So, let me get this straight. The impact or shall we say the fruit of these apparitions has been converting people to the Roman Catholic church (not converting them to follow the Jesus of the Bible as taught by the Bible but the Roman Catholic Church which is essentially an aberration of Biblical truth.) Other fruits are the building of Marian Churches (has nothing to do with Jesus). Another fruit is large movents and societies that follow Mary (once again not following Jesus). The fruit of Marian devotions through the rosary (God commands in the Bible to not take part in repetitive prayer, especially to Mary). Lastly, hundreds of millions of Marian pilgrimages (millions of dollars spent by millions of people chasing after Mary).
Quote:
Mariology
Murillo's Immaculate Conception, 1650

Marian apparitions such as Our Lady of Lourdes (which promoted Immaculate Conception) have also influenced the direction of Roman Catholic Mariology, as illustrated by the ex cathedra exercise of Papal infallibility on the dogma of Immaculate Conception. This also illustrated that unlike most Roman Catholic theology which originates from the upper levels of the Church, Mariology has quite often been driven from the ground up by the tens of millions of Catholics with a special devotion to the Blessed Virgin. As Marian apparitions create strong emotions among large numbers of Roman Catholics, they lead to sensus fidelium. This strong response among Catholics in turn influences the higher levels of the Roman Catholic hierarchy as sensus fidei gains strength.

To this end, the official Vatican website Agenzia Fides stated in 2004 that:

"The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was defined by Pius IX not so much because of proofs in Scripture or ancient tradition, but due to a profound sensus fidelium, a century-old sense of the faithful, and the Magisterium".[23]

The Vatican quotes in this context the encyclical Fulgens Corona, where Pius XII supported such a faith.[24] In several Marian teachings, the "theology of the people" such as the immaculate Conception, the profound and century-old sense of the faithful has taken precedence over academic theology.[23]

Murphy, do you really believe the Pope has the authority to change scripture (deciding that Mary was sinless in direct contradiction to the Bible)? What about the theology of the people? Do you really think that a large group of sinful people who through their strong devotion to this un-Biblical concept of Mary that results in strong emotion should be able to change scripture (Sensus fidelium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensus_fidelium)? If an apparition (Lady of Lourdes) promotes the un-Biblical Immaculate Conception do you really think that apparition is of God?

Quote:
Pilgrimages

Marian apparitions are also responsible for tens of millions of Marian pilgrimages per year. About 5 million pilgrims visit Lourdes every year and within France only Paris has more hotels than Lourdes. And about 10 million pilgrims visit Our Lady of Guadalupe each year, where each mass can accommodate up to 40,000 people.[25] Thus each decade, just Lourdes and Guadalupe amount to over one hundred million Catholic pilgrimages, based on Marian apparitions to two people on two remote hilltops.

The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima also attracts a large number of Roman Catholics, and every year pilgrims fill the country road that leads to the shrine with crowds that approach one million on May 13 and October 13, the significant dates of Fatima apparitions.[26] Overall, about four million pilgrims visit the basilica every year.[27]

Where is Jesus in all this? Millions of people and millions of dollars are being spent on people running after Mary.

Your second link:

Our Lady of Fátima
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fatima

Quote:
Three Secrets of Fátima
Main article: Three Secrets of Fátima
First two secrets

The first secret was a vision of Hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir, as follows:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."[11]

The second secret included Mary's instructions on how to save souls from Hell and convert the world to the Roman Catholic faith, written in 1917:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."[12]

The third secret, a vision of the death of the Pope and other religious figures, was transcribed by the Bishop of Leiria and reads:

"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!' And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."[18]

The first secret is hell. Nothing is revealed here that has not already been covered in the Bible.
The second secret is God commanding the world to be devoted to Mary's immaculate Heart to save sinners (no mention of Jesus here). Wow, so if what this apparition said is correct, then I don't necessarily have to have faith in Jesus and in Him only to save my soul. I can have Mary's immaculate Heart and find salvation there. This is earth shattering in it's importance if true. Let's take a closer look at the doctrine of Mary's Immaculate Heart:

Immaculate Heart of Mary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Heart_of_Mary
Quote:
Veneration and devotion

Veneration of the Heart of Mary is analogous to worship of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It is, however, necessary to indicate a few differences in this analogy, the better to explain the character of Roman Catholic devotion to the Heart of Mary. Some of these differences are very marked, whereas others are barely perceptible. The Devotion to the Heart of Jesus is especially directed to the "Divine Heart" as overflowing with love for humanity, presented as "despised and outraged"[2]. In the devotion to the Mary, on the other hand, the attraction is the love of this Heart for Jesus and for God. Its love for humans is not overlooked, but it is not so much in evidence nor so dominant.

A second difference is the nature of the devotion itself. In devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Roman Catholic venerates in a sense of love responding to love. In devotion to the Heart of Mary, study and imitation hold as important a place as love. Love is more the result than the object of the devotion, the object being rather to love God and Jesus better by uniting one's self to Mary for this purpose and by imitating her virtues. It would also seem that, although in the devotion to the Heart of Mary the heart has an essential part as symbol and sensible object, it does not stand out as prominently as in the devotion to the Heart of Jesus; devotion focuses rather on the thing symbolized, the love, virtues, and sentiments of Mary's interior life.
The Immaculate Heart pierced by a sword, appearing on the Miraculous Medal

The Immaculate Heart has also been involved in (and been depicted) in saintly Marian apparitions such as those to Saint Catherine Labouré in 1830 and appears on the Miraculous Medal.[3] On the Miraculous Medal, the Immaculate Heart is pierced by a sword. The Sacred Heart of Jesus also appears on the medal, next to the Immaculate Heart, but is crowned with thorns, rather than being pierced by a sword. The M on the medal signifies the Blessed Virgin at the foot of the Cross when Jesus was being crucified.

Our Lady of Fatima asked that, in reparation for sins committed against her Immaculate Heart, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months the Catholic:

1. Go to Confession (within 8 days before or after the first Saturday)
2. Receive Holy Communion
3. Recite five decades of the Rosary*
4. Keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary

She promised that, whoever would ever do this, would be given at the hour of his death, the graces necessary for salvation.

To be blunt this is a bunch on un-Biblical gibberish. So, basically, by maintaining a state of veneration (respect and awe analogous to worship) to Mary's Immaculate Heart as I would to Jesus's Immaculate Heart (I'll get to this in a minute) I will be able to save sinners from hell (as stated by the apparition of Fatima). So, to be clear if I maintain a sense of awe and respect analogous to worship and meditate on these attributes "Mary's interior life, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for her God, her maternal love for her Son, Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people." I will be able to save souls from hell. This type of teaching is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Okay, we should look at the Catholic teaching of the Sacred heart of Jesus as mention above.

Sacred Heart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart_of_Jesus
First, due to the complexity of what the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is I will have to give you another link rather than try and explain it myself.
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htm
So, basically if I do everything listed in the prior link I can achieve this in my life (back to the Wiki page):
Quote:
Promises of the Sacred Heart
Basilica of the Sacred Heart in Koekelberg, Brussels, Belgium
Sacred Heart Basilica, Paris.

Christ, in his appearances to Margaret Mary, allegedly promised these blessings to those who practice devotion to his Sacred Heart....

1. I will give them all the graces necessary for their state of life.
2. I will give peace in their families.
3. I will console them in all their troubles.
4. I will be their refuge in life and especially in death.
5. I will abundantly bless all their undertakings.
6. Sinners shall find in my Heart the source and infinite ocean of mercy.
7. Tepid souls shall become fervent.
8. Fervent souls shall rise speedily to great perfection.
9. I will bless those places wherein the image of My Sacred Heart shall be exposed and venerated.
10. I will give to priests the power to touch the most hardened hearts.
11. Persons who propagate this devotion shall have their names eternally written in my Heart.
12. In the excess of the mercy of my Heart, I promise you that my all powerful love will grant to all those who will receive Communion on the First Fridays, for nine consecutive months, the grace of final repentance: they will not die in my displeasure, nor without receiving the sacraments; and my Heart will be their secure refuge in that last hour.

So, if I follow the Sacred Heart of Jesus I'm going to have all grace, peace in my family, consolation for all my troubles, refuge in life and death, blessings in all my undertakings, etc. This is no different than the demonic lies of the prosperity gospel sweeping through the protestant church. This is once again a bunch of un-Biblical gibberish. Jesus clearly said in the Bible that if you follow Him you will be persecuted and suffer many hardships.

It goes on with this:
Quote:
Great efficacy of converting people has been attached to the use of the image of the Sacred Heart.

"Even at the hour of death, incredulous, indifferent, hardened souls have been converted by simply showing them a picture of the Sacred Heart, which sufficed to restore these sinners to the life of hope and love, in a word, to touch the most hardened. It would, indeed, be a great misfortune to any apostolic man to neglect so powerful a means of conversion, ....

So apparently I can also just show a dying sinner an image of Mary's Immaculate Heart and lead them to conversion. Wow!

Okay, back to Fatima and the 2nd secret.
The second secret goes on to talk of Russia needing to be consecrated to Mary's Immaculate Heart to avoid all sorts of bad stuff from happening. Well, as we know Russia went into communism and all sorts of bad things happened. I will not speculate further on this point.
The third secret reveals the Virgin Mary standing next to an angel crying out "Penance, penance, penance" as the pope and the Catholic leadership and all Catholics are slaughtered. Wow, well, I'm not sure what to make of this. We might as well check out penance since that seems to be the crux of the vision.

Quote:
pen⋅ance

–noun
1. a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.
2. a penitential discipline imposed by church authority.
3. a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

So, it seems the 3rd secret is about Catholics being slaughtered as a punishment for their sins under Mary's watchful gaze.

I am not going to bother digging into the other to apparitions since it will be more of the same. Basically, it seems to me that all these apparitions do is spew out false un-biblical teachings that draw people away from Jesus and redirects them towards Mary.

The gospel message is not complicated. We do not have to have the "Sacred Heart of Mary" or the "Sacred Heart of Jesus". Here are the Bible basics on salvation through Jesus:

The Basics of Salvation Through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/what-is-salvation.html


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Try to remember Murphy that these things are crafty, they have been at this a lonnnnng time and have innundated society everywhere. Just today I noticed several things. Went to Walmart - what a weird logo they decided to have - a sun with 6 rays. Went to the video store and about threw up, every rack was filled with evil, blood, gore ,hurt - it was just disgusting (rented Ice Age none the less) said Holy Cow when I saw all the violence depicted on the shelves right next to my Ice Age cute little mammoths that all the kiddies were reaching for - realized that I had just blasphemed by saying of all things!!!! Holy Cow!!!!!! (forgive me Lord)
Hathor - mother/fertility goddess - cow or woman with cow's ears and horns and sun disc on head


They're everywhere! Blaghghghghg!


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:39 am 
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As I see it, humans are being "human" again and not following what The Blessed Mother is saying.

In the apparitions, she tells the visionaries to pray to her son, Jesus.

She does not tell people to build ostentatious churches.

I've heard some Christians of other sects say it is incorrect to call Mary the Blessed Mother.

I don't see how this can be true when it is written in ( and I'll use the King James Version as that is what most of the folks
who don't believe in calling Mary blessed read):

Quote:
Luke.1, 47-49

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.


Even born-again evangelists sinned....Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. These are the more prominenat evangelists.

Yes, Roman Catholic priests have sinned too. It is also very wrong and they should go to jail for their crimes.

I don't like all the wealth the Vatican has either. Jesus lived a simple, humble life and did not adorn himself with worldly treasures.

Quote:
Lk. 13.25-27
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity


I have great respect and admiration for the Blessed Mother. I also respect other world religions.

Religion is a very sensitive issue and has caused many wars.

I was raised a Catholic but follow the spiritual ways of my husband. He's Lakota, born and raised on the Cheyenne River
Sioux Reservation in South Dakota. I suppose one could say my "religion" is Traditional Lakota (Lakȟóta )

I don't believe Satan has his hands in the apparitions of Mary; I look forward to seeing The 13th Day.

_________________
June 25th, 1955

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act”.......George Orwell


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Sophia said:
Quote:
As I see it, humans are being "human" again and not following what The Blessed Mother is saying.

Actually, she is not saying anything. She is in heaven with the saints in the presence of her savior Jesus. Satan and his minions are doing all the talking.

Sophia said:
Quote:
I've heard some Christians of other sects say it is incorrect to call Mary the Blessed Mother.

I don't see how this can be true when it is written in ( and I'll use the King James Version as that is what most of the folks
who don't believe in calling Mary blessed read):

There is a huge massive difference between calling Mary blessed as the Bible says and ascribing all the un-Biblical attributes that the Catholics do.

Sophia said:
Quote:
Even born-again evangelists sinned....Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. These are the more prominenat evangelists.

Romans 3:23 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203:23&version=NIV
Quote:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


That means you, me, all Catholics, all protestants, the pope, Mary, etc.

1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%201:8-10&version=NIV
Quote:
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


You quoted Luke 13:25-27 but mistakenly listed the wrong verses. Here is what Luke 13:25-27 actually says. I'll expand it by a couple of verses to capture the flavor of what Jesus is saying:

Luke 13:22-28 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Quote:
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

This is an example of people who think they are saved because they are familiar with Jesus and His teachings. However, rather than following the narrow path (strictly observing and obeying the teachings and laws of God found in the Bible) they were in fact observing the wide path. The wide path is adding to God's laws and teachings such as what has been done by the Catholics.

Lets look at Matthew 7:21-23 which are the verses you meant to quote:

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23&version=NIV
Quote:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Once again a series of verses that condemn people who thought they were Christ followers but who do not do the will of God. They were even so supposedly powerful in their faith that they did miracles.

Sophia said:
Quote:
Religion is a very sensitive issue and has caused many wars.

The gospel of the new testament is to love your neighbor as yourself and turn the other cheek. Satan is the father of lies and a murder. Here is Jesus talk about Satan:

John 8:43-44 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:43-44&version=NIV
Quote:
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

False religions are lead by the original liar Satan who seeks to be worshiped by man. War and murder would be a natural "fruit" or by product of such a system of lies. If, for example, you look at the deeds of the Catholic church over the centuries you will see such fruit. Most true Christians that have been martyred over the centuries have been murdered at the hands of Catholics.

What's Wrong with the Roman Catholic Church?
http://www.kenraggio.com/KRPN-CatholicErro.htm

Quote:
All this brings up another horror story in the RCC's vile history. Both the Catholic Crusades and the Inquisitions were infamous campaigns during which the RCC captured multitudes of people of many nationalities and either forced them to become Catholics or be persecuted, tortured or killed. Not many historians would disagree with an estimate of 50-60 million people who died mercilessly at the hands of militants fighting in behalf of the Roman Catholic Church. And most of them died because they would not conform to the wishes of the RCC. So, do you really think this is the Church Jesus built?? Not on your life!

Quote:
She is drunk on the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus Christ because of the multitudes of ancient true Christians who were put to death under the RCC's despotic authority.

Throughout its evil history, the Roman Catholic Church has conducted various kinds of "inquisitions," brutally and mercilessly torturing and murdering its opponents in nations around the world. For over 1,000 years, more than seventy-five Popes ordered the wholesale slaughter of no less than eight million non-Catholics for "heresy" - refusal to convert to Roman Catholicism. Many believe the numbers are more accurately around FIFTY MILLION dead, maybe even as high as 125 million. I don't have the time or space to treat this topic here. Do a web search on "inquisition," then sit back and fasten your seatbelt. It is APPALLING how sinister and demonic this "church" is! There is NO WAY on earth I could EVER call anything about the Roman Catholic Church "holy!" Lucifer dwells in the heart and soul of this organization.


Anyways, back to Mary and Fatima. Here is a good article that spells out clearly all that is wrong with Mary veneration and apparitions:

Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God?
http://www.gotquestions.org/lady-fatima.html


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:40 am 
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Having been raised Catholic by my parents... altar boy, commentator, Catholic school and all... called on... its hard to humbly admit you might have been misled the whole way. But your posts cd3000, Sparrow and Bremmer have really got my attention. I will re-examine everything once again... this will take some time to mull over. Thanks for the input and material... will study more and comment further, when able to. Reminds me of when I played a role in a Christmas play for a Penticostal congregation, upon invitation. The service after the play was a shock! I was convinced they were... well I couldn't wait to get out of there! ....But now 30 years later, hmmm, I admit I have a lot of things to work out in my mind now all of a sudden. Think its time!

What Sparrow posted about Isis has me thinking I have been visited not by whom was concluded... long story... Thanks! (I think)
Image

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previou ... index.html

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/wycliffe/

John Wycliffe, born around 1320, was a prominent theologian at Oxford University and a leading ecclesiastical politician in the dark period of English history following the decimation of Europe's population by the Black Plague. He became convinced through his own scholarship that Scripture itself, rather than the Mass, should be seen as the source of Christian authority.

Wycliffe's notion that the Bible should be translated into the common tongue for the edification of all believers was a radical innovation, and one that spawned a movement. Working outside of the Church, translators eventually produced perhaps hundreds of so-called "Wycliffe Bibles," translated and hand-copied from the Latin. It is not clear that Wycliffe himself produced any translations into English, so they are more properly known as "Wycliffite" Bibles. With or without Wycliffe's active involvement, the English Bible became part of an underground movement that became known as Lollardy and continued to spread after Wycliffe's death in 1384. It worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized, and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy -- a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His body was exhumed and burned in 1428. Wycliffite Bibles, even after the ban, were produced in great numbers, and the 250 or so that now remain are the largest surviving body of medieval English texts. But the time was not yet right for the Bible to exist publicly in the common tongue...

There are some little known facts about John Wycliffe that most people don't know and most of those who do, refrain from talking about, because they don't understand life. Some things are like voodoo to talk about, but several times during John Wycliffe's life, he was seen by others during his most special times with his Lord. It has been said that a very bright light could be seen at times in John's prayer room. Once a monk who was a close friend of John's, who told him of what was going on, on the other side, came to his room and seeing the bright light, opened the door. He later described that his friend John was above the floor and surrounded by a bright light.

John Wycliffe was a superman in spirit for the Lord he loved so much.

Spiritualism would best describe me now.


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:13 pm 
*Bump*
Did you get the Wycliffe Bible part of my post above?

Hey YOU ALL NEED TO see this...

The Secret :: Official Web Site of The Secret Movie :: Law of Attraction

http://www.thesecret.tv/

Change your life for the better by projecting what you want. Hey I'm not that guy in the picture above. I killed this thread with an ugly mug!

They call me “Gump”, like in Forrest Gump... because they say I look and talk like Tom Hanks. I don't really agree, but I'm not that ugly!


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:36 pm 
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Posts: 1283
Location: N. California
Hi Murphy,

You didn't kill this thread. It was just resting. That's funny that you look like Tom Hanks. I used to be accused of the same back in the day.

I took a look at your Wycliff and Secrets of the Dead links. It is humbling to look at the courage of those men. Most of them gave their lives to give us the Bible in the common language of the people. From your link Secrets of the Dead:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_bible/index.html
Quote:
But this translator, William Tyndale -- who was burned at the stake on October 6, 1536 -- was no lone renegade. Rather, he was a pivotal transitional figure, his work a step toward bringing direct experience of the Bible to a reading public.

Quote:
In the 14th century, the Roman Catholic Church was Western Europe's undisputed religious authority; and its central rituals -- the Mass and Communion -- the only legitimate pathway to salvation. The pope and the clergy held enormous power, and secular authorities looked to the Church for legitimation. Key to the Church's power was the fact that its rituals were conducted in Latin, a language inaccessible to the uneducated faithful. The public was completely dependent on the priesthood for access to salvation -- only through mysterious rituals conducted in an unfamiliar tongue could they conduct their spiritual lives.

Quote:
With or without Wycliffe's active involvement, the English Bible became part of an underground movement that became known as Lollardy and continued to spread after Wycliffe's death in 1384. It worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized, and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy -- a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His body was exhumed and burned in 1428.

Quote:
In 1526 Tyndale published his New Testament in a portable edition. First published in Cologne and Worms, and eventually smuggled into England in large numbers from Antwerp (where Tyndale found refuge during the late 1520s), it became a best-seller, popularized by itinerant preachers who recited Tyndale's words despite the fact that they risked burning at the stake.

In 1535, the authorities finally caught up with Tyndale; he was imprisoned for more than a year in Brussels before being burned at the stake (given his popularity, he was mercifully strangled before the flames were lit). His words had taken root in England, but it would take a political upheaval to bring the Bible to the English people.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Murphy wrote:
Quote:
Hey YOU ALL NEED TO see this...

The Secret :: Official Web Site of The Secret Movie :: Law of Attraction

http://www.thesecret.tv/

Change your life for the better by projecting what you want.

Murphy, I'd recommend staying far away from "The Secret"

A Review of The Secret by Rhonda Byrne
http://biblicalspirituality.org/secret.html

excerpted from the review:
Quote:
The essence of The Secret is "the law of attraction." According to Byrne and the twenty-nine co-contributors whom she quotes extensively, everything in the Universe (which is always capitalized and usually synonymous for "God") vibrates on a particular frequency. When you think in harmony with the frequency of something, you attract it to you. If you think about wealth, you will receive wealth. If you think instead about your debt, you will receive more debt. You attract what you think about; your thoughts determine your destiny.

Byrne restates the law of attraction in various ways: "Nothing [good or bad] can come into your experience unless you summon it through persistent thoughts" (p. 28). "Your thoughts are the primary cause of everything" (p. 33). "Your current reality or your current life is a result of the thoughts you have been thinking" (p. 71). According to the product description on the DVD, "This is The Secret to everything—the secret to unlimited joy, health, money, relationships, love, youth: everything you have ever wanted.

Byrne promises with ironclad certainty: "There isn't a single thing that you cannot do with this knowledge. . . . The Secret can give you whatever you want" (p. xi). By it "you will come to know how you can have, be, or do anything you want" (p. xii).

In the final analysis, The Secret is nothing more than Name It-Claim It, Positive-Confession, Prosperity Theology (without God and the Bible), built on a foundation of New Age self-deification. In other words, the book is just another version of what some TV preachers have taught for decades, namely, if you will sustain the right thoughts, words, and feelings, you will receive whatever you want. But The Secret adds this important twist: your thoughts can bring anything into your life because you are god.

Books that promise health and wealth for their practitioners are published every day. But few associate such promises with Byrne's breathtaking audacity. She proclaims to her readers,

You are God in a physical body. You are Spirit in the flesh. You are Eternal Life expressing itself as You. You are a cosmic being. You are all power. You are all wisdom. You are all intelligence. You are perfection. You are magnificence. You are the creator, and you are creating the creation of You on this planet (p. 164).

If that weren't blasphemous enough, realize that the book your neighbors and coworkers are reading more than any other also tells them,

The earth turns on its orbit for You. The oceans ebb and flow for You. The birds sing for You. The sun rises and it sets for You. The stars come out for You. Every beautiful thing you see, every wondrous thing you experience, is all there for You. Take a look around. None of it can exist, without You. No matter who you thought you were, now you know the Truth of Who You Really Are. You are the master of the Universe. You are the heir to the kingdom. You are the perfection of Life. And now you know The Secret (p. 183).

This would be beautiful if it were addressed to the God of Heaven. But as Byrne thinks this is what we should say to the person in the mirror, it is the heresy of heresies. Her "Secret" is nothing less than Satan's original lie in the Garden of Eden, "You will be like God" (Gen. 3:5).

It is no exaggeration to say that this book implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) denies virtually every major doctrine in the Bible. For starters, the authority of Scripture is undermined in The Secret, because the Bible apparently has value only insofar as it (according to Byrne) teaches The Secret.

Moreover, the Bible is neither unique nor supremely authoritative, for Byrne maintains that the holy book of every religious tradition contains The Secret. Thus Byrne's teaching is eclectic, that is, she believes that all religions and their scriptures are equally valid in their authority and basically teach the same thing.

Without mentioning Jesus, she quotes Him in Matthew 21:22 and Mark 11:24, claiming that the teaching to ask, believe, and receive in prayer is the way to "create what you want in three simple steps" (p. 47). And of course, it is not God we're to ask, but "the Universe." Thus The Secret is pantheistic, that is, it teaches that God is not a Person; rather He is to be equated with the totality of everything.

Despite this brief nod to the Bible, Byrne's book is marketed upon the implication that readers probably would never discover The Secret on their own. "It has been passed down through the ages, highly-coveted, hidden, lost, stolen, and bought for vast sums of money. . . . Now The Secret is being revealed to the world" (from the back cover). Thus the book is Gnostic, that is, it makes you dependent upon a small, elite group (namely, Rhonda Byrne and her panel of enlightened experts, "avatars," and relatively obscure historical sources) to tell you what you need to know. In fact, in true Gnostic style, Byrne and her illuminati expressly refer to what we need to know as a secret—"the Great Secret." And of course, you must pay—in this case, the price of the book or the DVD—to learn The Secret.

There's no mention of sin in The Secret. The cause of all the problems in the world and in our individual lives is merely bad thinking, specifically the failure to recognize and appropriately use the law of attraction. Therefore the solution to everything lies within us. And that, of course, eliminates the need for a Savior, a Substitute, or a Sacrifice. The cross and resurrection of Jesus become irrelevant.

Curiously, there's not a single reference to death or the afterlife in the book. Apparently this is a non-issue for contributors to The Secret, for one of them assures us, "no one will stand in judgment of [your life], now or ever" (p. 177). Another, when questioned about this on Oprah's second show on the book, suggested that Heaven and Hell were present experiences, not future destinations.

So as with nearly all false teaching, the flaws of The Secret are most visible when you examine what it has to say about the Bible and Jesus.

If I had to commend something about The Secret, I would mention its emphasis on gratitude and the importance of the thought life. Byrne devotes several pages to "The Powerful Process of Gratitude" (pp. 74-80). Though she does not base it on the Bible, Byrne nevertheless encourages just what the Bible teaches in 1 Thessalonians 5:18, "in everything give thanks." She says that regardless of the situations awaiting her, "By the time I am ready for the day, I have said 'Thank you' hundreds of times" (p. 76). Remarkably, she never says to whom thanks should be given. Nor is her motivation kindred to the one stated in the verse above: "this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."

Regarding the thought life, The Secret reminds us that there is a powerful connection between our thoughts and our actions. While the thoughts Byrne wants us to repeat are typically contrary to Scripture, she rightly observes that the thoughts we constantly affirm influence our feelings and our behavior. This conforms to the declaration of Scripture that Christians are "transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2). For us to live for the glory of God and in increasing conformity to Christ requires not only that we grow in our knowledge of God's Word, but also that we constantly reaffirm specific truths of Scripture, despite feelings or circumstances that contradict them.

The problem with The Secret is that it focuses our hope selfward and not Godward. It is all about self-empowerment, self-fulfillment, and getting whatever we want. But Jesus warned, "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?" (Matthew 16:26). The Secret disregards the fact that God has a Law and we have broken it (James 2:10). What Byrne fails to realize about her law of attraction is that our sinful hearts deceive us (Jeremiah 17:9) and attract not only more sin and guilt, but ultimately, the wrath of God.

However, God in His mercy sent His Son to receive this wrath as a Substitute for all who will repent of their selfishness and believe in Him. And "through the true knowledge of Him"—not Rhonda Byrne's book—"His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3).

"The Secret to everything" (to use Byrne's term) is God Himself. And God, the "Great Secret," has been revealed in Jesus Christ, "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). God has freely told us in the Bible everything we need to know about discovering the unlimited "treasures of wisdom and knowledge" found in Christ. And He remains an unknown Secret only to those who will not look for Him there.


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:50 am 
Thank you, CD 3000, for your time looking out for us. A friend brought The Secret CD over and we watched it and she loaned it to me. That's all I knew about it... was impressive looking but lacking all the things you mention about the book. Just earlier this evening another friend began informing me of the controversy around it. So I'm going to copy your excellent post and my friend and I are going to have a workout on this. To add to the workout on the other advice you've given me.

We will download the Wycliffe Bible too! Glad you enjoy it and that I was able to give it to you. Cheers,
Eddie


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 Post subject: Re: The 13th Day...The Movie of Fatima is here!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:20 pm
Posts: 1283
Location: N. California
Hi Eddie Murphy who looks like Tom Hanks :D

I'm glad I could be of some help. Enjoy your investigations!


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