December 21 2012

I was living in Florence but traveled around quite a bit. The north is beautiful.

So, I think you have valid complaints about the Templars and all the other groups you mention. I agree with your opinions about the Catholic Church. They've added to the Bible and made a bunch of stuff up. On the other hand the true church has existed from the time of the book of Acts and has often been persecuted by the "official" Catholic Church.

Godfire, I think you need to look at the shroud separate from these groups and their idolatrous relationship towards it.
Check out this article. If you consider the evidence submitted here there is no way any man past or present could have created that image.

THE SHROUD OLD NEW EVIDENCE
http://www.asis.com/users/stag/shroud/newevid.html

thank you for the link, i'm reading it right now.
florence is one of my favourites.

hi again.
i read yesterday the link you posted, actually i 'm still convinced that the turin shroud is fake. Maybe a well done fake but fake:-)...in nowadays they can fake a lot of historical evidences. It is not so difficult to do it now with the technology achieved by men. They even fake our books that we learn at school. Do you remember the famous words of Michael jakcson? : "they all are liers, they never will tell you truth. They falsificate the books, the history we learn is false. You must know it."
For example, i saw this video on youtube today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrzD0Pf ... -fresh+div

it is interesting. maybe those pictures meant the ufi really or they meant some astrological figures, godness ans so on. But it is possible also that those strange elements are added to the ancinet painting later, just to confuse, to give more misterious food to the human brain...
some time ago i was a total believer. I believed in all theories and events presented by anybody. But by time i got that actually the world is full of lie...

Hi Godfire,

I respect your deep seated mistrust. However, would you like to explain to me how they can fake this?

From the article:

There is nothing that I've heard of even in today's technology that can change the fiber of a cloth and choose individual fibers out of a single thread in the process. If someone was going to try and create this cloth by hand the only option available to humans back in those times would be paint. There is no paint on the cloth. Don't you think that if this is the real deal then Satan would do everything in his power to twist the truth about this cloth? Associate it with Templars, idol worship and every other whacked out thing? Satan is the liar, the deceiver, the conspirator. If this cloth contains physical evidence of the resurrection then you can bet that Satan has devoted his full attention to attempting to discredit it.

As far as the painting on the Youtube video who knows what those figures represent. They could mean anything. Of course people with an agenda will assign their meaning to it.

well, firstly, i usually base on my instinct and normally it tells me the right direction. I feel somewhere inside of me that the things like the turin shroud are fake...this is just my intuition. Then besides the intuition there are many things that don't convince me: who would prove that the face on that shroud is Christ? what if it was just somebody else? do we have an exact picture, image of jesus? no, we don't have...in that period all men were going around with long hairs and beard, so it can be the face of anyone.

second thing: why it didn't come out before and why the catholic church still can't say "yes" or "no" definetely?

finally: what should represent the shroud for believers? have the believers to adore the shroud only because somebody said that it may be Christ's image? didn't the same Jesus say that we shouldn't adore the idols, but only God? didn't he destroy all the idols in the temple?
you see, i never accepted and never understood this disperate need of humanity to find some material proof of supernatural in order to idolise and adore it later. I guess Jesus himself wouldn't understand this rush around the shroud...for me personally the turin shroud or any other symbolic piece has no significant, i don't need them in order to believe in christ, cause i believe in Christ anyway - with or without proofs. I just know that there are many bad intent people who have fun on kidding the faith of religious people, i think that the turin shroud is one of those bad intent person's work, nothing else.
of course, sooner or later the truth will come out, then we all will see what it was really about, maybe i will be wrong or maybe i will be right then. Now I'm convinced that it is a well done fake.

I love stories about the shoud , I see it this way . in every storie , every mericle every thing jesus ever did there was a witness to see it so the world would know , the one time that know one was there to see ....god took a picture

Well, I suppose the shroud could have contained anybody from the period who was crucified and had the ability to vacate their shroud with a burst of light bright enough to burn their image on their burial cloth. The only historical person ever said to have done that was Jesus.

It doesn't matter what the Catholic church says about the shroud. There are non Catholic scientist that have examined the shroud and I'll listen to them.

The shroud is physical evidence that Jesus was here in the flesh and rose from the dead. Period.

Believers should not adore, worship or idolize the shroud nor any other "sacred" element in possession of the Catholic church nor any other religious organization. Believers should worship the creator and not the creation.

The only significance of the shroud is the evidence contained within it that God was here and rose from the dead just as it was written. You don't need the shroud to believe in Christ. In fact I've never met any believer that even cares to talk about the shroud. When you have an active relationship with Jesus then you know He's real and you don't need any additional convincing.

yes, this is the most important.
so the shroud doesn't have any significant to me as a person which doesn't need proofs for Christ's existence.
regarding the point if it can be really Jesus's face on the shroud. Yes, the only history we heard was about jesus, surely there were many similar stories, but we heared only one of them until now cause it was about the man which chnaged the world. Unfortunately the other stories are lost in time, but we should know that logically it is impossible to prove acyually if it is Christ's fae on the shroud and if it is actually belonging to the period when Christ died. The time calculation, analysis of shroud age and so on are not and can't be sure, exact. This is one of the flexible points which can be used by any bad intent person in order to play on religious people's feeling. In few words: 1. the shroud can be totally a fake which is created using some advanced technology; 2. the shroud may be not so old by age, so the man on that shroud can not be Jesus in that case, 3. the shroud may be old and aproximately of the period of Jesus crucifixion, but we are still not sure if it is really the face of Jesus or somebody else died in similar way and circumstances.
Considering all these and especially considering by who our actual brutal world is governed, considering that these evil servants governors decide the history, fake the evidences, confuse the truth searchers and so on - i remain on my opinion that the shroud is fake.
i testimony that the miracles are possible and i personally saw the miracles in my life, directly gifted by Christ (for example i have seen Him in one of my lucid dreams and after that i healed my brother's sickness just touching him on that sick point. My brother also started to take seriously Christ's power after that episod)...that is one more reason for which i recognise by my own way the real miracles of Jesus. Of course, by this i don't want anybody to take my opinion as "must" cause i 'm just a normal person as anybody, we are all free in our decisions, opinions.
I'm sure He doesn't need to leave His bloody face traces on some shroud and He wouldn't do it in order to make the generations believe in His existence. Furthermore, it is always the most difficult and important test for every believer - to arrive to Christ without having any material evidence or proof. It is the matter of Soul. Otherwise it would be too easy...
IMHO

The technology needed to create the shroud does not exist even today.

Wow! Awesome!!! What did He look like in your lucid dream?

It has been shown on documentaries how it can be done with simple equipment.

huhhhh. He was really divine in His simplicity...you know, i have studied in an art school and i can draw, they say that i'm even good in drawing. No matter I tried a lot to draw Him after that dream, but i never could express totally all His greatness. It is impossible, you must see personally. By the way, in that dream His face was different than the shroud of turin...so this is one of the reasons why i don't take that shroud as valid.
That dream is very private, sacred for me. But i can tell in few words how He appeared.
Some years ago one afternoon I was alone at home on sofa, thinking about my life, the bad things happening around world and so on, i was really tired of all it, morally giving up, just reflecting on life. It was a summer time, i remember. At a certain moment i entered in some kind of virtual reality. it wasn't totally sleepy condition, neither lucidity, something in the middle...it was the first time happening to me.
i found myself in a room without doors and windows. A grey, simple room. Nothing on the walls, the walls just without colour, without painting, nude grey walls of mud. There was just a big piece of wood pending by the ceiling, i think it was just a stake, it didn't seem a cross...just a pending stake, in horizontal. There by other side of that stake appeared Jesus. I was actually atheist, sceptic before that dream. But when He appeared in my vision i just simply lost voice and words. It was too impressing. I was looking at Him totally impressed by His power. He was very simple, really, just a long, white dress. A healthy young man of His precise 33 years old age. (On turin shroud the face is older and that face characters are not so perfectly in harmony, proportioned as the face of Christ. The shroud's face is longer in vertical direction and it is older, seems between 40 and 50 years old man while Christ was younger). He was exhaling goodness, purity, was making me feel as if i was in front of my father or big brother. Just pure trusting, sense of total liberty - these were the feelings sent out, rpoduced by Him. He had long hairs, dark brown hairs, brown eyes. Eyes...full of love, peace, devote...it is difficult to describe, i wish you all can see and feel personally how He is... The skin also healthy colour, as if suntanned, like the people that walk or work a lot under the sunshine. Perfect face, perfect physics, it was a divine perfectness, here on earth we can't even imagine it. Tall. Nude feet. The stigmas on the hands and feet, but they were not bleeding, were dry and clean, almost healed. He had a suffering, a bit tired impression, but smiling. As if He was suffering by a long time, not for Himself, but for others, it is difficult to explain...you know the persons who work day and night without sleeping? did you ever see their faces after 48 hours of working without relax and without sleeping? just imagine the face of Jesus which works non -stop by million years...that was the impression. But He wasn't fed up, He was tranquil. He looked at me, then took that wood and bumped on His head with that wood. Then left the wood and looked at me asking me telepathically if i accepted to follow His act, repeat what did He do. It was a symbolical invitation or somekind of test to see if i was ready to face the difficulties, to fight as He did. Of course, i wasn't...Me - the average atheist 25 years old young girl full of doubts and confusion that time...no, i wasn't ready, so i stepped back full of shame. But you know what made me fond of Christ? the fact that He didn't blame me at all !!! He just smiled as if was saying: "no problem", blessed me anyway and disappeared again...
i had 2 or 3 other visions like that right few days after that one, all of them changed my life totally, in a better direction...
it is the first public place where i tell about my most sacred and secret experience.
i wish you all may one day experience the same...it changes the person totally, you feel some peace, solace inside, as if you are cleaned out of something hurting...

Hi Wizanda,


Back when the shroud was created they had candles and paint. Is this the simple equipment you are referring to? How exactly can you burn an image onto a piece of cloth 15 micron's deep, alternating fibers with candles or paint?

Godfire,

Thanks for sharing your story. That is beautiful. I've heard of many conversions in the Muslim world where Jesus has appeared to people in visions. Places where people would never believe unless of some sort of divine intervention. My own conversion was a result of divine intervention and as I later found out lots of people praying for me.

Remember, Jesus was just crucified. His face would be mangled, swollen, etc. Plus, the image was created from light blasting off of His body so light may project in ways that do not paint a perfect likeness of what you saw. I've read of many accounts from people that have seen Him in his glorified state. People that have experienced NDE's and such. They usually describe seeing him in his glorified state such as when John saw him:

Revelation 1:12-16
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&version=31


They describe his face being bright like the sun but somehow they are still able to make out his features.

well, Cd3000, you are free to believe in anything including the shroud. By my side i'm pretty sure that the shroud, but also other so called material miracles are fake, there is no material proof on the earth about any divinity, it is the matter of soul, it appears only into the soul, out of soul it can't be presented. cause the soul is the unique piece of God we have and o it is able to get such supernatural things. Cause there is no material thing which may support or express a real divine element. It is simple to understand. We see around us so many beautiful things, animals, flowers and so on. But no one of those things is perfect. Cause they belong to the imperfect material world of illsuions. The Truth is something impossible to show by any shroud or piramids or cups...
the other fakes - these are nostradamus prophecies (there never existed any man by that name and no prophecies of him, that personage is invented after II world war by freemasons. The book of nostradamus is just a codified program of nwo which they would like to realize by time. They comunicate between them in this way - across the newspapers headline, TV announcements, false prophecies, books, novels and so on. They do it for 2 reasons: first cause it is the best way of keeping secret their plans. Second cause in this way they make the people unconsciously help the nwo in their plans. You help them mentally realising the scenes they indure you across the false prophecies and evidences. The power of faith is really great. Jesus Himself said "if you believe by heart and ask that mountain to move, it will move. You just must believe." When we believe in any nostradamus prophecy or any disastrous prevision for 2012 and so on, we help nwo to realise these things. They can't realize their plans without our mental help. Without our illusions. I hope, i speak clear, i'm afraid it is difficult to explain very well...)
also the so called miracle of lourdes is a fake, the stories told about renee chateaut and so on...all are fakes, serving to confuse the truth searcher, to help the nwo to earn more time before you arrive to the truth. These are all fake stories, created by the NWO - these are the false fonts of energy. In this way they capture your attention, i mean the attention of people and the faith of people to those false miracles which become a place of devotion, a kind of energy absorber. They collect the energy of believers and then convert it in order to use it for their dirty plans. We are the unique potential adversary of ourselves. Otherwise they never would be able win us. They just use our faith, ingenuity against us.
I agree with Wizanda, i also saw that piece on tv when they show how it is possible to fake the things like the shroud...
The face on that shroud is absolutely different and it is not the matter of being deformed by strikes or blood and so on. It is just a different face, a face of some older average man. The fact that this face is long in vertical direction - it can't be a result of strikes...the soldiers couldn't prolong a face of person only by striking:-)...it is obvious that whoever faked the shroud, wasn't able to correct that detail. It just went out of the control. I know how it happens, cause as i said, i can draw, i have learned the techniques of drawing at art school. It happens that sometimes while drawing a face or body of some person some piece gets out of control. No matter you try to correct it many times, you can't cause as much as you try, so much it gets ruined - the only way is making all from the beginning. Maybe the faker just didn't care so much about that detail, maybe it was enough for them just to create one more confusing detail, to earn more time. There may be many reasons, but one thing i'm sure by my side that all these things are fake. Then anybody is free to believe or not.

There is proof everywhere you look of divinity. The earth, the heavens and you.

So do you believe that if all of us around the world that are thinking negatively about 2012 didn't think that way then nothing bad would happen? Do you believe the demonic realm is unable to work in this world without the negative faith of humans or conversely that God is unable to work in this world without the positive faith of believers? What about the prophecies in the Bible. The 7 year tribulation in which most of the earths population dies. The Antichrist, etc. Do you believe this is going to happen? If you believe this do you think you are helping to bring this to fruition or oppositely if you don't believe this are you a preventative force against these events coming to pass?

The skeptics on the show that you and Wizanda are referring to thought the image on the shroud was a stain. They thought it could have been painted on the cloth. It's not a stain and could not have been painted on. It is a burn. No paint, no candle or any other tool could have produced that image. If you are not willing to look at the science of the shroud then you can't talk of the shroud with intelligence.

How about me giving it a full cycle at 90* with some Tide bleach or Fairy?
'S a good way to see if the stains are set or burnt in.

I'm willing to bet that you end up with a nice shiny white brighter-than-bright piece of tablecloth!