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| The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse http://december212012.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6917 |
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| Author: | survivor727 [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse |
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/11/letter_re_some_ground_truththe.html Letter Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Mr. Rawles, I am a retired Army warrant officer working for the Army teaching Electronic Warfare and Signal Intelligence. I only started reading your blog last week. It's addictive, but slightly disturbing. Having worked for the Army for 27 years in a number of different failed countries I may have a unique perspective on survival that I would like to share with your readers. I believe most of the "survivalist community" is vastly underestimating the impact that other humans are going to have on their plans. Hunkering down and waiting for everyone to die off is a simplistic plan and I believe has almost no chance of working. You may be able to hide your retreat, but you can't hide the land it sits on. That land itself may become a scarce commodity if the US transitions to an agrarian economy. Food is the key resource. Most communities are at risk because they simply don't have enough calories stored to get them through any kind of crisis. But, storage is no more than limited capital to allow people time to grow more food. Food production requires land....if your retreat is sitting on farmable land, it will be a scarce resource. Carrying capacity of the US using non-petroleum farming techniques is far lower than most of your readers probably think. Also, most areas of the US, especially cities, don't have anywhere near enough farm-able land to go back to some kind of agrarian pattern. Without public infrastructure and modern transportation, we are going to experience a huge die-off caused mostly by starvation. In a total collapse scenario without immediate restoration of the economy, basically everyone who lives in a city is doomed unless they can take over some kind of farm land. If you live in an area without enough farm land, you will be a "have not". Period. I don't care how much food you have stored in your basement. Here is my key point. These teeming millions will not just starve and go away. I believe that anyone who thinks they can defend a working farm against raiders is deluding themselves. 1. People are dangerous. They are the most dangerous animal on earth. You can never lose sight of that! In almost any society breakdown scenario you can think of, you will be surrounded by starving predators that are much more dangerous than tigers. In the USA, every one of them (or at least the vast majority) will be armed with firearms. The ones currently without firearms will obtain them by any means necessary including looting government armories. These are thinking-breathing and highly motivated enemies. 2. Raiders, defined as "outlaw looting groups" may be a threat for a very short period, but I really don't see groups of more than 4-6 ever forming...they will be quickly replaced by much larger groups of "citizens" doing essentially the same things, but much better armed and organized. An Example: A few hours after Albania's political crisis in 1998, (which was caused by a national lottery scam), almost every adult male in the country procured an AKM from government stocks. Armories were the first targets looted. I flew into Tirana packing a pistol and a sack of money, naively thinking I would be able to move around the country and defend myself. What a laugh. Everyone had me outgunned, and the vast majority of them had military training of some sort. I never got out of the capital city. Every road seemed to have roadblocks every few miles, blocked by armed local citizens. 3. Without central authority, people don't just starve and go away. They form their own polities (governments). These polities are often organized around town or city government or local churches. They may call it a city counsel or a committee or a senate. The bottom line is, "We The People" will do whatever "We" have to do to survive. And that specifically includes taking your storage goods. 4. When (not if) a polity forms near you, you had better be part of that process. If not, you will be looked upon as a "resource" instead of a member of the community. The local polity will pass a resolution (or whatever) and "legally" confiscate your goods. If you resist, they will crush you. They will have the resources of a whole community to draw upon including weapons, vehicles, manpower, electronics, tear gas, etc. Every scrap of government owned equipment and weaponry will be used, by someone. Anyone who plans to hold out against that kind of threat is delusional. 5. The local polity that forms is almost certainly going to make mistakes. Some of them are lethal blunders. Odds are, the locals will probably not have given a lot of serious thought to facing long term survival. They will squander resources and delay implementing necessary actions (like planting more food or working together to defend a harvest). They may even decide to take in thousands of refugees from nearby cities, thereby almost insuring their own longer term starvation. A much better approach is to be an integral part of the community and use the combined resources of the community to defend all of your resources together. This would be much easier if a high percentage of the community were like minded folks who were committed to sharing and cooperating. Because any community with food is likely going to have to somehow survive while facing even larger polities, like nearby cities, counties or even state governments. Don't expect to face a walking hoard of lightly armed, starving individuals. Expect to face a professional, determined army formed by a government of some kind. A small farming community can probably support a few outsiders, but not very many. The community will need to politically deal with outside polities or they will face a war they can't win. Hiding the fact that you are self sufficient is going to be hard. You can't hide farm land. Defending your resources against the nearby city will be even harder. You may be able to save the community by buying protection with surplus food...if you have prepared for that. You may indeed have to fight, but stalling that event for even a year could mean the difference between living and being overwhelmed. In any case, your community needs to go into the crisis with a plan. You may be able to shape that plan if you become a community leader instead of a "resource". With Very Kind Regards, - R.J. |
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| Author: | toddintacoma [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse |
thanks for the post.it makes alot of sence to me...i have often thought that in a society collapse i would be defending against my neighbors ( so to speak) and not the government... any sugestions on how to start a community of my own to become powerfull enough to protect a group of like minded people...i know i cant do it by myself for long... |
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| Author: | survivor727 [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse |
toddintacoma wrote: thanks for the post.it makes alot of sence to me...i have often thought that in a society collapse i would be defending against my neighbors ( so to speak) and not the government... any sugestions on how to start a community of my own to become powerfull enough to protect a group of like minded people...i know i cant do it by myself for long... It's tough. Trust is the key. We have about 20 people in our group and are max'd out. Any more I believe would be unmanageable. Fewer would not offer enough security. We also have a wide cross-section of trades, doctor, nurse, carpenter, etc... but EVERYONE can handle a firearm! That was a basic requirement. |
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| Author: | 9191tiggers9191 [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse |
Excellent post Survivor. I have been thinking about this for a long time. I really don't think people have any idea what can happen if there is world wide catastrophe. A family or individuals huddling in their basement with their cans of soup and tuna aren't going to cut it. I wish it was enough but for the average person it won't be. SB has often stated that food is one of the most important aspects of any survival plan. He is correct - that and weaponry is going to be the most important part of any survival. We take something as simple as food very much for granted. When you want more - you just go to the store. In a catastrophic event there won't be any more stores - there won't be anymore anything. As far as governments - that will be one of the first things that arise. If you get 2 or more people together someone wants to be the leader and needs to be. If you get 4 or more someone wants to be the leader and someone else doesn't want him to be - your first conflict. Think The Stand - there is always going to be a Harold Lauder and a Stu Redmond. Regarding farm land and necessities - the biggest and most powerful groups will take what they want when they want it. It will always be about power in one way or another. Sadly, it is one thing the human race will never give up - the need to have more and better. Survivor, your group sounds like a good group. You have common goals and are small enough to not get bogged down in foolishness and big enough to work together as a team. |
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| Author: | survivorI [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse |
This was an excellent post and makes some strong points. I don't disagree with them. I have always ascertained however that if your opponents can't find you, they can't hurt you. I also have extensive military experience. I have also maintained that in your cache and shelter that you have a ten year supply of food. The problem with any fighting force is that there is always a fighting force somewhere bigger and just as good as your fighting force. Evasion, unless conflict is unavoidable, is always under all circumstances the best idea if survival is the objective. The problem with our military training is that survival is not and has not ever been our primary objective except when faced with adversity and a need for an exit strategy. Winning has been the main objective. Survival doesn't have an agenda beyond survival. When you decide on an enemy and you get an agenda to defeat that enemy, then you have moved beyond the survival plan into other areas. Another problem with the militia unit is that unless your women and children are as trained as you are, a roaming band just doesn't function as well as having a base of operations and if your base of operations can be found, it probably will be if the people looking for it are very good at search and destroy. For me, I believe that I can best protect myself and my family in a hidden shelter. Also, the on the fly approach doesn't have much of a chance against a nuclear or biological incident and I believe that this is just as real of a possibility as a societal, cultural, economic breakdown. I completely and absolutely agree with what has been said about food. The farmland will be what has to be protected. Eventually. ten years later when we come out of the ground after the worst is over. Perhaps, a group could have the best of both worlds. A militia could bury shelters with massive stores of food, in case there IS nuclear or biological conflict, and if not, they would have stores enough until they either became productive farmers or established another method for obtaining food from others. Even having formed a group, indicates that you are very serious and I am always happy to see people who are taking the possibilities seriously. I am being made aware of groups all over and this isn't the survivalist movement of the seventies and eighties. You are just as likely to find groups with doctors and lawyers as you are with Captain Jacks although there are still plenty of jacks. Groups are better organized, smaller, and much more secretive. |
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